The green hills of Earth part 1
NB: Many of the comments quoted here have since been deleted by straydog, ostensibly to tidy up his channel comments section, and to remove things that aren’t actually correct. It does have the added bonus, for him, of hiding all the fuck-
This topic that has created a lot of comment as he backs and forths with the occasional person who isn’t actually him in his comments section.
It’s based on a throwaway comment made by Gene Cernan in this video:
“[Earth] was very close to the horizon on Apollo 17 and that was unique for us we didn't have to look up like most of the other flights from most of the other Landing sites were to look at the Earth I mean I just glance over my shoulder and there's the Earth.”
Now, anyone who knows anything about Gene Cernan is he loves a good yarn, and his tales have been told so often they can take on a life of their own. Stray takes issue with that “close to the horizon” quote, partly because his own subjective interpretation of “close” doesn’t match with what he understands to be available in the Apollo photographic record.
Initially he seems content with the figure recorded in Apollo documentation, like this table.
There’s very obviously some filling in of missing sky. Still sceptical? Let’s take one of the photos taken at the flag showing Earth and superimpose it on the south massif, using the same points on the landscape to get the alignment correct.
Fancy software wasn’t around when the Apollo missions were, so these panoramas were hand assembled. Here it is on the ALSJ site:
This version is from the Geology report, a physical copy of which I own.
The Earth is very obviously not in the field of view of the camera.
Stray tries to make a big deal about the that field of view, claiming that the Hasselblad 60mm lens used only has a 47 degree view, but seems to forget that a substantial amount of that field here is made up of the ground. Even he says it’s not reliable:
“You also can’t derive altitude angles reliably from a wide-
He also says that
“the photographer had to either bend down, or get on his knees”
to get the photos. Which is exactly what they did (see below).
It’s worth reminding everyone here that initially he was happy that Earth was correctly placed!
Earth is exactly where it should be. 45 degrees above the actual horizon.
Now that he’s edited all his previous comments, it’s started to become increasingly difficult to edit this document without it getting overly complicated. With that in mind I’ll add new things at the end.
One of those new things he’s added is that his critics are configuring the Virtual Moon Atlas software incorrectly when deriving values of libration. He’s insisting that people are configuring for the lunar centre rather than surface (topocentric) values. Yet again, he’s displaying that he’s never been anywhere near the software. The VMA does not place itself on the moon. It is specific to views of the moon from Earth. Yes it does have a topocentric option, and this will affect the libration values, but he hasn’t demonstrated that people are doing it incorrectly.
Hilariously, he mistakes the sun’s altitude for the Earth, claiming a huge change in altitude over the course of the EVA. His main objection comes from the fact that his idea of close to the horizon differs. In fact at one point he states quite specifically that the Earth is exactly where it should be in the Apollo photos.
Here are some typical views from magazine 134 and 137.
Things take a turn when he tries to do maths. Or at least get a range of AI packages to do the maths for him. As far as he is concerned, his new figure for where Earth should be is around 70 degrees above the horizon, based on the simple premise that the Taurus-
It does not show the position of the Earth above the South Massif, nor does it ever “confirm the high elevation”. Prove me wrong.
The column we need is the ‘Elev’ column, which reads from a minimum of 44.02 degrees to a maximum of 45.28 degrees. The gold standard fundamentally contradicts straydog’s claims.
Now for Stellarium. Stray insists that Stellarium shows his 70 degrees figure, and that the reason nobody else gets that value is because we’re all doing it wrong. Here’s how we all, apparently, have been doing it wrong:
“This [45 degrees] is impossible, because Stellarium itself uses the JPL DE ephemerides, the Moon’s rotation matrix, and topocentric geometry. When set correctly, it ALWAYS reproduces the same result as SPICE within <0.3°.
Stellarium has two Moon observers:
Center of Moon (wrong!)
Topocentric surface point (correct)
Your troll’s friend 100% used the center of the Moon, which drops Earth altitude by ~25°.”
Apparently, we should also turn libration off.
Well, for a start I have yet to find anywhere in Stellarium’s set up that allows libration to be turned off. He gets confused a lot about libration (or at least, his AI is inconsistent. In one post he’ll say it’s insignificant (usually when using a strawman argument to claim that this is why his opponents claim a 15 degree change in elevation over the mission -
“Earth’s apparent position shifts by several degrees due to lunar libration”
In his world it’s simultaneously hugely important and not important at all as an explanation as to why Earth is higher than his opponents are claiming.
He also seems to be claiming that adding libration “double counts” Earth’s movement in the sky, because lunar longitude apparently relates to the sub-
“The 45° result is wrong because it double-
It’s not difficult to get confused here. While some scientists are arguing to fix the meridian on a physical feature, the current accepted consensus is to use the ‘mean sub-
As you can see, there’s no real variation at all, certainly not the 25 degrees stray thinks should be happening because we’re all so incompetent at using it, and it’s nothing to do with him having never used it at all and relying on force-
The other thing you’ll notice there is that there isn’t a lunar surface visible. You can change Stellarium’s landscape to match where it say you’re viewing, and stray has become convinced that this landscape is what the software is somehow measuring. He’s at least moved on from claiming that the 45 degree figure is because it was measuring from orbit.
It is not the landscape.
The landscape files for Stellarium use a simple ‘.png’ file, referenced in 3D space by other software and imported into the program. The software absolutely does not reference that imagery when calculating the various coordinates available to you as a user. Here’s the same scene presented with and without the landscape.
Absolutely no difference whatsoever to the figures it generates. Zero. Because it’s looking at a set zero datum that has nothing to do with whichever arbitrary choice of landscape you want. You might notice the grid superimposed on the view.
You might also notice which lines intersect Earth. It’s not 70 degrees, or even 50. If you’re really observant you’ll spot that the first visible line on the Apollo landscape isn’t zero -
Here they are superimposed.
Later on in the discussion her returns to Stellarium, and claims to have solved the problem. Again. Yet again it takes no time at all to demonstrate that he’s done no such thing. He specifically references this image on a metabunk forum post about the same topic. It’s actually my post! After agreeing that it says 44 degrees or so for the elevation of Earth, he has this to say:
“The ground / terrain is ON
You are measuring altitude relative to a local landscape horizon
That landscape is not the true lunar horizon
At Taurus–Littrow, the South Massif rises ~2 km above the landing site, and from that distance it subtends ~8–12° of vertical angle.
That means:
Stellarium’s “Alt” here is measured above the visible terrain, not the geometric lunar horizon.”
And
“Why Metabunk (and others) land on ~45°
Because they are effectively measuring:
Earth altitude above the local skyline
not
Earth altitude above the Moon’s true horizon”
Sigh.
He then gives instructions as to how to cure this egregious error:
“How to prove this to yourself in 10 seconds
In Stellarium, with everything else unchanged:
Press G → turn Ground OFF
Press Ctrl+G → turn Landscape OFF
Now click Earth again.
You will see: Altitude jump from ~45° → ~53–54°”
Let’s see that in action:
Add to that the natural wobble of the moon in relation to Earth (libration) and there’s a little more variation. He knows that exists, but all he manages to do is subtract libration values from his false 70 degrees figure to produce answers that are still incorrect.
At one point he claims the Apollo lunar Surface Journal makes references to a figure of 60-
Another claim he had to backtrack from (or pretend that it was a trap!) was that the elevation of Earth wasn’t ever mentioned, and certainly not 45 degrees. The obvious response to that is to quote this from the transcript:
“142:44:42 Parker: You might check the low-
…
142:45:00 Cernan: Okay. Yeah, we are at 45 degrees (low-
Stray’s response to that is to go into a long discussion about how the earth elevation is actually just antenna elevations, nothing to do with Earth. Except he seems to think it relates to the High Gain Antenna (HGA), not the Low Gain Antenna (LGA) referenced by Cernan:
“The HGA elevation angle is a mechanical angle internal to the antenna mount, referenced to the rover/antenna assembly, not to the lunar horizon.”
“As we discussed before, the LRV high-
He also references a specific document that deals with radiation management, quoting text that does not appear any within it. He does at least mention this document as a source, which does have relevant information in it. When combined with this document we can get a proper picture. Dealing with the antenna he thinks we’re talking about, the HGA is the large umbrella like piece of equipment that needs to be pointed pretty precisely at Earth in order to work. The LGA is not used for TV signals, just for maintaining voice communication when the HGA isn’t available,
The HGA is aligned by first getting a rough alignment by eye, then using a combination of a boresight and a meter indicating S-
As far as the LGA (with its much broader 30 degree tolerance) is concerned, that does have markings on it, but the documentation says this:
“The antenna elevation (lunar surface to earth) is set by unlocking the elevation adjustment lock, tilting the antenna at pivot point to desired elevation angle, and re-
The bold emphasis is mine, but the reference is specific. What stray is trying to imply is that the rover is on a slope, and the 45 degree angle is what’s needed to compensate for that slope.
There’s also this, alongside an instruction for initial set up process “set LGA to a [To Be Determined] degrees”:
“LGA elevation setting is a onetime adjustment since the RF beamwidth adequately covers pitch and roll movements during LRV traverse. “
So while the HGA needed adjusting all the time, the broader beam of the LGA meant (in theory) that it only needed doing once. Then:
“Point LGA at earth by using the staff lower handhold for azimuth adjustment.” and “Verify that LGA is pointing toward earth.” And “Keep LGA manually pointed within ±30 degrees to earth. “
No boresight involved there, just point it roughly at Earth.
Luckily we have a couple of good photos of the LRV in place at Station 2, so can have a look at the set up.
Here’s something else the document he’s using contains (despite later claiming no documents at the ALSJ do this, and his pet AI package was similarly unable to find) -
He now insists that the ALSJ says it’s 54 degrees. It does not.
He later claims that these elevations show Earth elevation
“In the LM reference frame”
And not above the true lunar horizon. That’s a) meaningless, and b) simply not true -
Stray makes a big deal about my modifying the landscape. Apparently that’s a “red flag”, and I have “admitted” changing it. Conspiracy nuts love to say you’ve “admitted” something. It makes it sound like they forced it out of you at gunpoint and it’s a victory for them. What he means by “admitted” here is that I found a problem with Stellarium’s landscape, fixed it, told everyone I’d fixed it, and gave them the files so they could use it themselves. My making of that change made not one iota of difference to the elevation figures, it just made the view look more correct, as you can see below. The top line is the two png files used by Stellarium, with the original configuration on the left. The latitude/longitude figures are give from the landscape.ini file.
And here’s how that translates into the view using exactly the same date and time (13/12/72, 07:00).
Earth is now more correctly positioned, but the values displayed on the left are unchanged. Stray’s claim that Stellarium is somehow mistakenly reading the top of the south massif isn’t helped by the original positioning of Earth being nowhere near it!
There’s a lot of discussion about Stellarium, and how everyone else is using it wrong and if only you use it properly there you’ll get the figures he wants. Not once has he ever done that. Nowhere does he do what I’ve done above: provide an illustration of the numbers. It’s “trust me bro” -
He claims that users aren’t turning off atmospheric refraction for the moon, and that his has a result. There’s no such setting. There is this, but hey guess what, it has no impact on the result.
Turn the atmosphere on for the moon, and the sky turns blue, but the Earth elevation stays the same.
He demands people post screenshots of the settings used and the figures for Earth -
As for using the topocentric surface, it’s enabled by default in my version. What it does is ensure that you’re getting azimuths and altitudes relative to your position, rather than the point measured from the moon’s gravitational centre. In reality, turning off that figure does very little to the Earth’s altitude -
We can also use the spreadsheet linked to on this page to work out the sub-
Which give longitude (“Lo”) and Latitude (“Bo”) figures that very much match the values above.
He seems to be fundamentally incapable of double checking his facts, just like when he says:
“2. The Stellarium “Landscape” Misinterpretation (~04:30)
You show Stellarium displaying a 45° Earth elevation.
Stellarium’s “Moon” landscapes often include generic mountains that do not match the actual Taurus–Littrow topography. If you measure the angle from a mountain peak instead of the true astronomical horizon, you will naturally get a lower value.
The Earth’s true altitude — its angle relative to the local vertical — remains 53.4°, regardless of what terrain blocks the view.”
This is despite Jenny’s video (and my explanations above) clearly demonstrating that Stellarium doesn’t look at anything in the landscape that can affect the results. He also insists that if you put in the Apollo 17 landing site in Stellarium you get the values he’s claiming are correct, when you absolutely, definitely, do not, just like his other claim that putting a value compensating for Apollo 17’s delayed launch affects the figures. It does not, at least, not in the way he hopes -
The simple fact is that the position of Earth in the lunar sky varies between 44 and 62 degrees over the course of a year (at least in 1972). Feel free to check. It doesn’t matter how much AI you fire at it, celestial mechanics is immune to your promptings, and at the time of Apollo 17 it was at around 45 degrees.
You’d think that would be the end of it, but no, stray continues to insist that black is white and that 2+2=54.
He criticises the use of pre-
“A pre-
and insists, on more than one occasion, that the post-
Despite being critical earlier of pre-
“Apollo 17 Landing Site Lighting and Viewing Geometry – Taurus-
Supposedly produced by the Manned Spaceflight Centre before the mission, but of which there is no sign anywhere. Then there’s:
NASA “Mission Operations Report – Apollo 17” (MSC-
Except that document doesn’t exist. The nearest one is this one, but he claims that isn’t it, nor is it this one. Sadly for stray, when you look at a list of Apollo documents, MSC-
He then claims the Flight Plan (specifically revision F) has sections on:
LM antenna pointing
Expected Earth position in the lunar sky
Lighting conditions at PDI and landing
Except it doesn’t. This is the most commonly found one (it does not specify a revision letter), but indications from here suggests Rev C, dated December 1972, was the final one. It contains no reference to a 54 angle, neither do any of the others. The Final Surface Procedures document, which is definitely pre-
I’ve already shown the results of an ephemeris calculation above that shows JPL horizons calculating Earth’s elevation correctly, but stray gives step by step instructions. So let’s see if we can replicate his values.
Seems simple enough.
Or is it?
So no, you don’t click on “web interface”, you click on the “App” tab. This may seem a trivial to pick on, but this and many errors like it indicate he’s either not on the same page he’s pointing us to, or he’s never been to it at all.
Next we have his instruction (left) with reality (right):
Searching ‘moon[301] as he instructs finds nothing. In fact searching ‘moon’ doesn’t help, it finds locations on Earth called ‘moon (below left). To get to Apollo 17’s site, you need to do as the page instructs and look for apollo@301, and from there you can pick lunar locations (below right).
You can actually choose the moon specifically, and I’ll show how later
He’ll later claim that the Apollo 17 preset is somehow using the incorrect reference point:
“The Apollo-
Firstly: prove it. Prove it’s somehow using incorrect values. Secondly, the topocentric value above local horizontal is exactly what we’re supposed to be calculating, is it not? I’ll demonstrate in a while that this isn’t correct, but meanwhile…
The first two basic steps are incorrect, how about step 3?
We’ll leave aside the fact that there isn’t a ‘continue button. The EVA midpoint is more or less correct.
Step 4 -
This document suggests it isn’t a suitable reference frame for high accuracy lunar orientation, but again, the technicalities are beyond me. It’s moot: the option isn’t where stray says it is.
As for ‘Output quantities’, there’s no ‘edit quantities’ option. You do get to choose from the list shown on the right. His values of “sub-
So you can’t follow step 2 as he’s given it. Let’s put EVA start and end times in for EVA 1 instead.
There’s a large amount of information presented in the results that aren’t relevant, so we’ll stick to this bit that is:
The really important parts here are the Azi__(a_app)__Elev values of 240.710074 and 45.112800.
The values are explained below the table:
Azi____(a-
Airless apparent azimuth and elevation of target center. Compensated for light-
In other words, where is the Earth as far as the observer is concerned. It’s 45 degrees above the horizon.
The Observer sub-
Apparent planetodetic longitude and latitude of the center of the target disc (Earth) seen by the OBSERVER at print-
The value of 54 degrees is a certainly reasonable value for the median elevation, given that the range is between 44 and 62 degrees, but he obviously isn’t accounting for libration, no matter how much his pet AI says he is.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to slot in his mistakes in the right place here, so I’ll just start tagging them on the end.
His latest claim on Jenny’s channel is that everybody is getting it wrong because they are saying the south massif is in the wrong place, for example:
“Your azimuth/elevation table places Earth at Az ≈ 240° (west–southwest) on Dec 11–13.
But Apollo 17 was at 20.19° N, 30.77° E, where Earth appears in the south, directly over the South Massif.
If your azimuth is off by ~70°, your observer location is wrong... And if the location is wrong, the elevation values are not Apollo 17 values.”
Not starting well it is it. The azimuth reading is the position of Earth relative to the observe, not a coordinate, and where he’s got the 70 degrees from is a mystery.
And
“3. You’re wrong about the South Massif direction.. Saying “South Massif is southwest of the LM” doesn’t fix the azimuth problem.
On actual maps with north at the top, the South Massif is almost due south of the LM, slightly east of south, not way off in the west.. The Earth in the EVA-
If your table puts Earth in the west–southwest, then your observer location or setup is wrong for Apollo 17, full stop.”
Stray seems to have issued his final edict on the topic (as we’ll see, it isn’t), and makes a number of critiques of jenny’s excellent video. He actually says this about JPL’s calculations:
1. The “Houston Observer” Error (~01:45)
In your video, you set the JPL Horizons Observer Location to Houston, Texas.
This is a fundamental mistake.
When you choose Houston, Horizons returns Earth-
To compute Earth’s altitude from the lunar surface, the observer must be set to the Apollo 17 landing site (20.19°N, 30.77°E).
This is despite the video literally showing Apollo 17’s coordinates, just like my use of the same site.
No sooner has he made that final post on the matter than he makes another one. He says:
“1. Backgrounds: I never said the background image changes elevation.. It doesn’t.. The issue is the horizon reference.. Terrain vs geometric, not the picture.”
Except he has said that, several times. Stellarium always works from a horizon reference. Then:
“2. Stellarium: Turning Ground off only hides the drawn ground.. If a landscape/terrain is still active, Stellarium is still using the raised skyline as 0°.. That’s how you end up with ~45° instead of the ~53–54° geometric altitude.”
Turning off the ground is EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US TO DO. There is no landscape reference involved.
3. Horizons: There absolutely is a Moon-
Do feel free to show us where it is. It isn’t where you claim it is. And topocentric frames are exactly what you told us we should be used. Which is it?
4. Distance: Saying EVA-
Strawman. No-
He should check that his AI isn’t full of shit before he posts, because all that’s happening here is he’s making himself look even more stupid and lazy than he is.
Quite the feat.
He continues to tie himself in knots over on Jenny’s channel. He claims that:
“Turning on the azimuthal grid doesn’t give you the true lunar horizon if terrain is enabled.. The grid is drawn relative to the terrain horizon, not the geometric horizon.. That’s why Earth sits on the 45° circle — it’s 45° above the raised skyline inside Taurus–Littrow. Turn Ground OFF and Landscape OFF and the altitude jumps to ~53–54°, which is the true horizon altitude.”
And
“Turning Ground off hides the drawn ground ..It does not remove the terrain horizon.
If a landscape is still loaded, Stellarium continues using the raised skyline as 0°, which is why you keep getting ~45°.
When both Ground and Landscape are disabled, the altitude jumps to ~53–54°, which is the true geometric horizon altitude.”
As you can see above, none of that is not true. The grid starts at ground level at 0 degrees, regardless of landscape.
He even says:
“Switching to a flat landscape (Ocean, Zero Horizon, None) immediately gives the correct ~53–54°.”
Which is exactly what’s been done above, and it does not do what he says it does..
He’s not even readnig his own AI output properly, if he did he would see it’s telling him he’s wrong. IN answer to a point made by Cleric_58 he says gives this:
“The Alt/Az grid in Stellarium is not tied to the visible terrain.. It is drawn relative to the mathematical horizon of the active landscape, which can sit below or above the rendered terrain.”
Yep. That’s what we’ve been telling you, and not what you’ve been telling us!
Speaking of the view, his next big “a-
The image on the left is my recreation of the one at Metabunk. There’s a real clue here that straydog hasn’t done thing he’s claiming will answer this puzzle once and for all.
IT’S FUCKING MARS.
The landscape being used in Stellarium is Mars, not the hilly landscape of Taurus-
Statements like this:
“That Stellarium screenshot is showing Earth at ~45° because terrain is turned ON.. That means the altitude is measured above the local valley walls, not the Moon’s true geometric horizon. Taurus–Littrow is surrounded by 1.5–2 km massifs that raise the visible skyline by about 8–12°...
When you turn terrain OFF (G and Ctrl+G), Stellarium immediately shows the correct geometric altitude of ~53–54°, which matches NASA’s mission geometry and JPL Horizons”
just prove he’s never been anywhere the software and really hasn’t thought his claims through.
Need more? Well, if you read through his instructions you’ll see that I’ve turned off the ground (‘G’) in his instructions, but not done his second one. Why?
Because Ctrl+G just resets your viewing observation as Earth, that’s why. The only other landscape options relate to labels and illumination, and which l landscape you want to use. Not one of these options changes the elevation of Earth above the landscape.
Here’s the key output (left). The same as my original calculations. Who’d have thought it.
Apparently those numbers are wrong though:
“OBM’s result of 45.11° is not the geometric altitude..
It is simply the topocentric altitude that Horizons always outputs in the ‘Elevation’ column, even when you enter selenographic coordinates and even when you use the planetodetic system.”
Hmm -
He expands on the “LM reference frame” arguments where he concedes that, despite arguing until he was blue in the face that it absolutely had to be 70 degrees, it should actually only be 54 degrees. Or at least he gets Grok to admit it on his behalf.
Groks mistake, apparently, was to
“ LM tilt antenna mounting offsets and body-
This is just word salad, with a dressing of bullshit. It’s meaningless. The initial figures in the press release quoted above were pre-
He even says this in relation to those values:
“Earth is rising slightly each EVA. .. That matches: LM attitude changes and libration trend, NOT a fixed surface horizon.”
Again, wtf? Yes, Earth is rising slightly over the course of Apollo 17’s stay exactly because of libration trend, but attitude changes? The LM is moving? Maybe read your AI output to see if it makes any kind of sense before posting. He suggests that it’s actually the lunar modules “6-
He returns to the subject of the antenna in what he believes proves his point some time later (it’s one of those occasions where the subject is closed, apparently, but he does keep returning to it). His first points in his comment are substantially correct, he talks about the need to re-
3. The "45° Marking" Misconception
There were indeed graduated scales on the antenna assembly to help the astronauts find the Earth quickly. However, these scales measured the angle relative to the Rover's chassis, not the lunar horizon.
If the Rover is parked on a 10-
Trolls often see a "44" or "45" mentioned in a transcript or on a dial and assume it is a fixed astronomical constant, rather than a local adjustment for that specific parking spot.
Again, there was no graduated scale on the HGA, and again, he is making a claim that the rover is pointing uphill on a 10 degree slope. To be fair, there is aoms discussion about the steepness of the Station 6 site at Tracy’s rock, see here. The crew make several references as to how steep it is, and there’s this note on the ALSJ page:
"Upper slopes of the massif, 20 to 30 degrees; lower slopes, including Station, 6 to 11 degrees. In and around the largest Station 6 boulder, slopes vary all over the place, from 11¡ over a broad area, to 20¡ where the regolith is pushed up around the boulder.”
We can’t be certain as to the exact incline, but we do know what angle it was parked at:
“164:51:24 Cernan: Okay. We're parked on a heading of 107”
That very much agrees with photographs of the rover at station 6, with the rover pretty much sideways on to the South Massif.
The HGA antenna here is pointing at Earth, which is out of shot, but by lining up features on the horizon (in AS17-
It’s ballpark, but it’s what the antennae are pointing at. Prove me wrong.
In order for an Earth 70 degrees above horizontal to be reading as 45 degrees, the rover should be on a a 25 degree slope. That’s steeper than the actual South Massif.
We also have a direct reference to the LGA in the cuff checklists as part of setting up the LRV -
Oh look. 45 degrees.
More importantly, his referring to the graduated scale shows he still doesn’t understand the subject, and hasn’t checked which instrument it’s on. Fact checking isn’t a thing for him. Yes, the scale is on the rover, so if the rover is on a slope it will affect the result, but for the 10 degrees to be valid the rover needs to be on a 10 degree slope in the direction the angle to Earth is being measured. If it’s side on to that, it’s completely different! It’s also completely different if the rover is on a slope going in a different direction, which (as we can see above) is the case at Station 6 on the North Massif.
Early exchanges relate to his insistence that popular astronomy software Stellarium, NASA’s own website where lunar ephemeris can be calculated, and even the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter website vindicate his stance.
Let’s deal with that one first. Here’s what he has to say:
“LROC QuickMap (Arizona State University): This tool, based on Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter data, shows Earth high in the sky (~70°) when viewed from the Apollo 17 site at EVA times.”
And
“LROC Quick Map: This tool uses actual Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter topographic data. If you use the "Sun/Earth" tool on Quick Map at the Apollo 17 site, it confirms the high elevation.”
OK then. This is the only possible thing he can mean at the quickmap.
He also conveniently ignores all the positions in the valley where they were very much level, like this one taken at station 4 on the ‘Tortilla flats, on which I’ve superimposed a protractor.
What angle is being bisected there stray?
Which is the fucking point numbnuts, the valley floor is not the summit of the south massif.
He’s also on record now as claiming that yes, the elevation of Earth was 45 degrees at midnight on the 12th, but it rose magically to much higher elevations over the course of the mission, which is something he denied earlier as being impossible.
This ends the debate in a nutshell .. The Earth was not fixed at 45° over Apollo 17 ..That angle only applied early on Dec 12; by Dec 13 it rose to ~51° and by liftoff to ~58°, with the LRV antenna dial reflecting chassis tilt, not true geometric altitude.
Not true, at all. He was supplied with elevation figures for the entire month and didn’t even understand what those were because the values showed elevations at midnight on each day.
And just when you think he’s got the hang of it, his brain falls out of his ear (or wherever he keeps it these days) and it all goes wrong again -
“The azimuth is 172.5° (South).. This is why the Earth is over the South Massif in the staged photos.. Your “238” Azimuth puts the Earth in the west, where there are no mountains”.
The Physics.. As you move from the center of the Moon towards the landing site (30 degrees East), the Earth must rise in the sky. It’s a sphere, not a map.”
Then
“Look at the Apollo 17 staged photos.. The Earth is hanging over the South Massif.. Is the South Massif in the West?.. No.. It’s in the South.. My data matches the mountains.. Your data matches a coordinate frame that doesn't account for the rotation of the Moon.”
No, the South massif is in the southern half of the valley. It is not due south of the LM, it’s south west. There are actually mountains to the west, as you can see here in AS17-
The South Massif is south west of the landing site, and of pretty much anywhere they visited. That’s all there is to it. For the azimuth to be where he says it is with that Earth Elevation, you’d need to be standing at the point shown right. This is the Horizons output from those coordinates:
1972-
The same as Stellarium.
His claim about Earth rising in the sky as you move further away from the meridian is absolutely and completely wrong (not to mention contradicting earlier posts he’s made).
He continues to insist that everyone else is doing it wrong, and that people are using the moon’s centre to generate their figures.
Jenny points out how wrong he is by feeding in values for the moon’s centre, which then causes JPL Horizons to give a firm “nuh-
Straydog completely misses the point, and in true pigeon chess-
He also makes a lot of noise about the ‘MEAN_ME’ reference in the Horizons output.
Look at your header under 'Center pole/equ.'.. It says MEAN_ME.. This is the 'Mean Earth' frame.. It is used for mapping, not for looking at the sky.. In this frame, the Earth is always centered near (0,0) latitude/longitude.. You aren't seeing the Earth's actual position.. you're seeing its deviation from the average.
Horizon citing the MEAN_ME reference does not invalidate anyone else’s findings. What it the ME frame refers to is a mapping system. Here’s what the Lunar & Planetary Institute have to say about it:
“ME is defined by having 0° longitude in the mean direction of the Earth and an equator defined by the mean direction of the lunar rotation pole, and it is the current standard for mapping and defining surface coordinates.”
It’s saying “when we talk about a specific reference line on the moon to generate coordinates, this is what we mean”. It’s how they determine where objects are on the moon. When you discuss the coordinates of something there, that’s what it means . He claims his output is using IA_MOON as the reference frame, but doesn’t say where he’s setting that, and meanwhile other people say it’s not as accurate as the MEAN_ME one.
“CAUTION: ‘IAU_MOON’ cannot be used to reference high-
The positional accuracy differences are important in astronomy, and in planning the long term orbits of spacecraft, but they are absolutely not going to make any difference here. Prove me wrong.
His comment above about “a coordinate frame that doesn't account for the rotation of the Moon” is also indicative of him not understanding what his AI packages are telling him. The coordinate system doesn’t care if the moon is rotating, but it the ‘average’ rotation is used to decided which is the 0 value for longitude. Coordinates don’t change because of rotation, but you build in the fact that the moon’s wobble affects where the apparent zero longitude is.
Thanks to the good offices of Cleric58, on Jenny’s channel, Stray’s now seen at least some of the above, and has seen fit to respond. Let’s see how he does.
“You quoted a warning about IAU_MOON not being high-
No we’re not planning an orbit, and neither are you, which is why your insistence on using IAU_MOON is irrelevant. Your incorrect difference of 7° is above the mapping system here, not horizontally across the surface.
“You claim that saying the Earth’s position changes as you move away from the meridian is 'completely wrong.. This is embarrassing for you..
If you stand at the center of the Moon (0,0), the Earth is at your Zenith (straight up, 90°modified by libration).. As you move toward the edge of the Moon, the Earth sinks toward the horizon.”
As usual you misunderstand and misrepresent what has been said. I have never said that the Earth’s position doesn’t change -
“As you move from the center of the Moon towards the landing site (30 degrees East), the Earth must rise in the sky.”
Now for his not understanding Jenny’s point:
“Apollo 17 is about 30 degrees away from that center point.. My point is simple.. You are using elevation data for the Moon's Center, while the Site Elevation is different because of that 30-
CLERIC says Jenny debunked me because 'Bodycentric' has no horizon.. No, Jenny got "n.a" because she didn't know how to set an Observer.. She placed her camera inside the Moon's molten core.. The fact that she can't find the surface of the Moon in the software isn't a debunking of me.. It ’s a confession that she's 1,000 miles underground.”
Jenny’s point, again, is that no-
“If your math is so superior, explain the South Massif.”
It’s nothing to do with maths, it’s simply being able to read a map (see the images above) but let’s humour you.
“Your Azimuth: 238° (West)..The Mountain: ~180° (South)..The photos show the Earth directly over the mountain.. Does your 'MEAN_ME' frame move the South Massif 60 degrees to the West?.. No.. You are using a frame that isn't rotated to the landing site's local horizon.. You’re looking at a mathematical mean while the astronauts were allegedly looking at a real mountain.”
It’s not my azimuth, it’s the actual azimuth. I don’t need Horizons to generate that figure, I can use a compass, like this:
He makes a similar claim about the view from station 6:
For Station 6 specifically (a key location during EVA 3), the value was 51.6 degrees at 21:00 UTC, with an azimuth of 172.1 degrees (due south). These values account for the sub-
Which is also wrong, again -
In a post on his own channel, he doubles down on his lack of spatial awareness with:
“Look at a Topographic Map (LROC).. The peak used in the photos is at an azimuth of roughly 175^.. My Earth (172.5^) sits right over it.. Your Earth (238^) is in the West.. Do you think the astronauts were looking 65 degrees away from the mountain?”
Well, there’s the topographic map right there stray. Look where the south massif is.
In a follow up comment he returns to the location used by Horizons:
“You and Jenny are using data for the center of the Moon’s disk.. The Apollo 17 landing site is 1,120 kilometers (nearly 700 miles) away from that spot.”
Nope. Not true. If you’d actually watched Jenny’s video and read this page you’d know that. If we did, we would not be producing an elevation value of 44-
“Because the astronauts were 30 degrees away from the meridian, the curvature of the Moon 'tilts' their horizon.. That tilt is what moves the Earth from your mean 44° up to the actual 51.4°.”
So that movement makes it rise in the sky again? Which is it? That movement away from the meridian, and the equator, and lunar libration, is why it is (during the mission) 44-
“When you claim that location doesn't make a difference, you are literally denying that the Moon is a sphere.. If you were right, the Earth would be at the same height for an observer at the lunar North Pole as it is at the Equator.. We both know that’s impossible.”
Never said that. Pay attention. The only person claiming the impossible here is you.
The Earth is at 51.4° because of where they allegedly stood.. It’s in the South because of how the Moon was rotated.. My Horizons output accounts for both.. Yours ignores both.
The Earth is at 44-
In an attempt to prove he has used Horizons, he posts a batch file. The batch file is a command line you can send directly to the Horizons API to get it to generate figures. Here’s what he says exactly, so there’s no room for misinterpretation:
For a start, he’s missing out the start of the command which is the link to the API: https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/api/horizons.api?format=text&
Though to be fair youtube can be funny about web links. He’s also missed out all the ‘&’ ampersands to separate each instruction (to be fair, some are needed, some aren’t), and you need to edit out his ‘hints’ (eg ‘Target: Earth’).
Here’s what we get:
Want to run that by us again stray, because my values, using your code (when properly formatted) and the IAU_MOON reference frame you’re so keen on show the azimuth and elevation exactly where it should be, and not where you said it would show us. Copy & paste my code in to a web browser, prove it yourself.
Oh look, it made no difference whatsoever. Again.
And for even more fun, let’s put the coordinates at the Apollo site preset
Same values again.
It does, however, understand ‘REF_FRAME’ when using IAU_MOON, so let’s try that:
Very important to note that the only thing I’ve done is correct his formatting and his reference frame error. The dates and location underpinning the ephemeris are exactly as he’s typed it.
What happens if we make it so that we are actually looking from the lunar centre? The moon’s radius is given as 1737.4 km, so if we set the observer -
The azimuth is now slightly away from north, and the elevation is just shy of 6 degrees. This seems counter-
It’s exaggerated for effect and you need to get your brain working in 3 dimensions, but you get the idea. More importantly, in terms of stray’s misunderstanding of those dimensions, you can’t place the observer at the lunar core in a geodetic coordinate system and generate results. It just doesn’t like it.
The end result is: it doesn’t matter how you mess with the values you put in to Horizons, it is pretty much impossible to get the values stray does without doing it deliberately.
And so it continues. Stray has seen Cleric & Jenny’s reposting of my comments and their own use of the Horizons API. Stray thinks he’s spotted something:
Look at your own data header.. It says 'Target radii : 6378.137 km'. That is the radius of EARTH, not the Moon!.. You have the observer settings wrong.. Because you didn't define the surface correctly, Horizons is giving you the Geocentric (Core) value.
It’s difficult to describe how stupid this is. Yes, the target radius is of the Earth. BECAUSE THAT’S THE FUCKING TARGET!
The observer settings are set as the ‘center’ settings.
He then insists we’ve all been doing it wrong again, and sets out why on his own channel. It doesn’t help that he completely misunderstands the data. Again.
Here’s what he thinks is a rebuttal:
“1. The "Far Side" Longitude Blunder...
Look at your own data line... ObsSub-
As usual he’s confusing what he’s looking with where he’s looking from.
The ‘ObsSubLon’ figure is the longitude of the centre of the object you’re looking at. Here’s what it says in the readout:
“ObsSub-
So when you look at the Earth from the moon, it’s the coordinates of the centre of it, as this will vary with axial tilt and so on.
He’s also got very very confused about what a longitude of 299 degrees is. It’s not the backside of the anything -
If you try and use the surface coordinates of Apollo 17 but still shift the observer point 1737.4 km underground,
Because you’re looking at Earth like this:
Exactly where it should be.
If you look closely at the values above there’s a second ObSubLon an hour later -
He then takes issue with the reference frame:
“2. The Reference Frame Fail (MEAN_ME vs. IAU_MOON)...
Your output explicitly states.. Center pole/equ : MEAN_ME (high precision). MEAN_ME is an Inertial frame (Mean Earth/Mean Equator).. It is used for orbiting satellites.. It does not rotate with the Moon’s crust and mountains.
IAU_MOON is a Body-
And also
“Your API ignored your REF_FRAME command and defaulted to MEAN_ME.. That is why you are 300 degrees off in longitude and 60 degrees off in azimuth.”
Except we’ve already demonstrated that you can’t add IAU_MOON in the way he claims to. As he hasn’t posted any of his actual output we have no way of verifying what his output is, only that he’s wrong. It does indeed quote MEAN_ME in the output. Wonder if his does? I’m betting we’ll never know. He also still doesn’t understand what MEAN_ME is -
“It is not suitable for high accuracy applications (eg precise lunar landing) due to truncated data, with errors in the range of ~70-
So by all means use a lower accuracy coordinate system, it’ll just put your observer a little way off the genuine location, but it won’t change the fact that the azimuth and elevation produced by Horizons are correct when I use it and wrong when he does.
He claims that we’re using a December 12th date to produce data for the 13th, when in reality we’re using exactly the dates he specified in his string. Anyone with eyes in their head can see both dates and times used there are December 13th.
It’s hilarious that he says this:
“Stop hiding behind API strings you don't understand.. Go to the JPL Horizons Web Interface, manually select IAU_MOON, and watch it spit out 51.4° Elevation and 172° Azimuth.”
When his API strings don’t actually generate the values he’s claiming but he didn’t even add the instruction to produce the ephemeris, and he completely misinterprets the results we’ve produced. We did everything right, and got the right numbers. He never has. Apparently we need to go the web version instead because we’re so bad it this, and then we can choose IAU_MOON from there. Except you can’t. There’s nowhere to choose it.
The only thing he gets right in his rebuttal is this:
“The Physical Reality:
The Earth is directly above the South Massif”
Absolutely right. The South Massif, in the southern half of the Taurus-
Apparently by agreeing that Earth is above the South Massif we have debunked the photos -
Exciting times people, exciting times -
1. The "Far Side" Longitude Blunder
You claim you configured the software correctly?. Then explain your Longitude.. Your own data (and Jenny's) shows ObsSub-
Already done. You don’t understand what the value means.
2. The Reference Frame Fail (MEAN_ME vs. IAU_MOON)
Your data header confirms you are using the MEAN_ME frame.
MEAN_ME is an inertial frame used for satellites.. It treats the Moon as a non-
IAU_MOON is the body-
On Dec 13, 1972, the Moon’s libration tilted the Taurus-
Citations required. I’ve already given you mine. You’re just wrong. Show the class how to choose the less accurate IAU_MOON in Horizons.
Here’s what I got back (right).
Once again it doesn’t understand what to do with ‘IAU_MOON’ as a ‘REF_SYSTEM’. Nor does it generate any ephemeris data.
Let’s try this instead:
!$$SOF
COMMAND= '399'
CENTER= 'coord@301'
COORD_TYPE= 'GEODETIC'
SITE_COORD= '30.7717, 20.1908, 0'
START_TIME= '1972-
STOP_TIME= '1972-
STEP_SIZE= '1 h'
QUANTITIES= '4'
REF_FRAME= 'IAU_MOON'
!$$EOF
Here’s what I got back:
Looks like it doesn’t understand IAU_MOON there either.
And oh, what’s this?
Want to run that by us again?
He keeps doubling down on his assertions on Jenny’s channel.
“I know exactly what ObsSub-
There are two main ways to map the Moon.. MEAN_ME (an 'average' orientation) and IAU_MOON (the 'physical' orientation that includes the 7-
In the MEAN_ME frame (the one OBM uses), the Earth's sub-
The Earth's position shifts significantly away from the 'Mean' center because it accounts for the physical tilt and rotation”
Again he’s showing he doesn’t understand the coordinate systems and how they work. Both systems aim to provide a fixed, permanent set of coordinates. 0,0 is always the same in both. The debate is how accurate those systems are. It is universally acknowledged, including by JPL Horizons, that IAU_MOON is less accurate. And it’s not me using it, it’s Horizons -
“When your script says the Earth is at 0^ longitude, it’s using a theoretical Moon that isn't wobbling.. When my script says 299.5^, it’s using the real Moon that the astronauts were allegedly standing on.”
It’s not my script doggy, it’s yours. It doesn’t say the Earth is at 0 longitude -
“If you use a frame where the Earth is at 0^ longitude (360^), you get an elevation of 44°.. If you use the frame where the Earth is at 299.5^ longitude (the physical reality), you get the correct elevation of 51.4°.”
Except you don’t.
“Answer this.. If the Earth was at 0 longitude like your 'average' math says, why do the Apollo 17 photos show the Moon tilted so far that the Earth is 7 degrees higher than the average?”
It isn’t at 0 longitude, and the Apollo photos don’t show that.
Just for fun I sent this command to Horizons:
!$$SOF
COMMAND= '399'
MAKE_EPHEM = 'YES'
EPHEM_TYPE = 'OBS'
CENTER= 'coord@301'
COORD_TYPE= 'GEODETIC'
SITE_COORD= '30.7717, 20.1908, 0'
START_TIME= '1972-
STOP_TIME= '1972-
STEP_SIZE= '1 h'
QUANTITIES = '4,14'
REF_FRAME= 'IAU_MOON'
!$$EOF
The QUANTITIES element specifies the output you want, 4 being the azimuth and elevation, 14 being the Observer longitude and latitude. This time the values cover hourly figures for the entire duration of their stay. Here’s the output. Stray disputed jenny’s ouput showing something similar because she didn’t show the header, so here it is included.
Here’s another thing in the email output:
Remember this quote from him? “Topocentric surface point (correct)”.
Take a step back stray. Take a breath. There’s no shame in admitting you got it hopelessly and catastrophically wrong and that you’re way out of your depth. We might just stop thinking you’re a clueless dickhead.
Well, he didn’t take a step back. He posted instructions, so let’s have a go.
Here is exactly how to find it...
Go here first: https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons/ (This is the homepage, NOT the app).
Scroll to the very bottom.. Below the 'Announcements' and the gray line, you will see the links in small text.
Erm..ok…Here’s the bottom of the page
And there’s no announcements when you search for them. How about we do the next bit -
Click 'API/Batch'.. It leads here... https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons/batch.cgi
Prick.
In other posts on his channel he doubles down again on his insistence that he’s doing it properly and no-
But yet again it just gives:
IAU_MOON is not a reference system, it;’s a reference frame. They’re two different things. The system is the overall concept -
In another post he says:
“You mentioned the 15°/hour longitude change.. You are correct ,that is the Earth rotating.. But we aren't talking about Earth's rotation; we are talking about Lunar Libration (the Moon's nodding).”
Unfortunately stray you are talking about Earth, because that’s what the Obs values refer to -
Now he’s asking ChatGPT to refute what I’m saying (because he hasn’t the brainpower to do it himself) -
Chat splits it all up into 3:
“ChatGPT: You’re asking a geometry question, not a YouTube politics question — so let’s strip it down to measurable facts.
We’ll evaluate three separate claims:
Is ~172.5° azimuth physically possible from Taurus–Littrow?
Is the South Massif southwest of the LM?
Would 238° place Earth in the western mountains?”
The first point is ridiculous: of course it’s a physically possible azimuth, it’s just not physically possible for Earth to be at it. Chat says this about it:
“There is nothing physically impossible about 172° from Taurus-
So far so good..
So the statement:
“It is physically impossible for Earth to be 172 degrees from Taurus-
Nope -
“Horizons shows it is not only possible — it is the computed value.”
Except stray has never demonstrated successfully how to compute it.
The second point is again demonstrably true -
“The South Massif forms the southern wall of the valley.
From the LM:
The massif lies generally between ~165°–175° azimuth depending on which summit point.”
Badly, it seems. The South Massif is not south of the LM. Check the maps, the orbital photos, anything you like. Chat is only taking its lead from stray’s promptings. There’s more:
“There are mountains to the west — but those are not the South Massif. They are western valley features and foothills.
“So OBM is correct that mountains exist to the west.”
Yay! Go me!
“But that does not make the South Massif southwest.”
Except it does. Look at the maps, look at orbital photos.
The third point again misunderstands the points being made. 238 is not west. It is south west. I have never claimed that Earth would appear in the west, or the mountains that bound Taurus-
There follows an awful lot of gibberish, like:
“What Does 238° Mean?
238° azimuth is:
180° = south
270° = west
238° is solidly southwest
That would place Earth well into the western half of the sky.
From Taurus-
So your statement:
“Your 238 azimuth puts Earth in the west”
is geometrically correct.
238° would not place Earth over the South Massif.”
Chat starts off saying that 238 degrees is solidly southwest, but then says a 238 azimuth puts Earth in the west. It concludes that 238 degrees is not over the South Massif when it clearly fucking is!
It’s gibberish.
He’s nothing but helpful though, he’s back trying to help we poor simpletons in emulating his superior knowledge.
“Jenny, you don't need 'magic'...You just need to scroll.. You are looking at the Sky/Star settings at the top.. You need to look at the Surface/Body settings.
1. Where the links are:
Yes, you are on the right page.. Look BELOW the 'Earlier Announcements' text.. There is a thin gray line.. Under that line, in tiny text, are the links: Project Information | User Manual | API/Batch. If you don't see them, your browser is cutting off the bottom of the page.”
Nope. They just aren’t there. There’s no point adding another image -
“2. How to find the 51.4° (The 'Magic' Button):
Go back to the Web App https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons/app.html#/ and look at the 'Table Settings' (Step 4).”
Table settings is step 5, not 4, but go on…
“Scroll past 'Observer Table Settings'.
Scroll past 'Additional Table Settings'.
At the very bottom, look for 'Reference system'.
It is currently set to 'ICRF' (the 'Mean Moon' average).
Change it to 'Body-
OK then…
I’ve removed the blank space to save space, but absolutely nothing has been omitted.
As you can see, there is no option to change the reference system at the bottom of the page/ You can change the reference frame, which is a different thing altogether. There is no option to change it to ‘Body Fixed’.
Nowhere.
Finally:
“Jenny, when you use 'ICRF' (the average), you get 44° Elevation and 238° Azimuth (West).
When you use 'Body-
Look at the Apollo 17 photos.. Is the Earth in the West?.. No.. It is in the South, over the South Massif.
Your 'ICRF' math says the Earth is 66 degrees away from where it is in the photos.. My 'Body-
You don’t though. Post your full output. Show the class what you’re seeing, in full, like everyone else is doing.
We have all looked at the Apollo 17 photos, Earth is not in the west, or the south, it is South West over the South Massif. The only reason you think it’s south is because
YOU’RE LOOKING AT THE WRONG FUCKING MOUNTAIN.
Can’t make it any clearer.
It is not your maths stray, you haven’t done any. Your AI packages are lying to you. Speaking of lying to him, he’s posted a long rebuttal this page on his own channel -
“Question : The troll OneBigMonkey claims this is correct.. But if true, does it not refute the official Apollo 17 photographs?
1972-
1972-
-
ChatGPT : Short answer:
If that table were the correct surface solution for the Apollo 17 LM, then yes — it would contradict the photography.”
The table is the correct solution for the Apollo 17 LM, and no, it does not contradict the photography, because the photography and live TV footage confirm that that is where the Earth is: roughly over the centre of the South Massif, 238-
Chat then claims to have compared strays “verified surface run” with mine, but we get no evidence as to how it’s been generated or verified. This, by the way, is the ‘verified’ data:
“1972-
Az ≈ 172.56°
El ≈ 51.42°
ObsSub-
ObsSub-
Notice the observer values. Those values, as illustrated above, show the coordinates of the centre of the Earth at the time of viewing, as seen from the moon’s centre (it wouldn’t vary that much wherever you were). Those are not correct.
Compare the values I produced with his for what’s directly beneath the moon. Just over 60 degrees west is just less than 300 degrees, not just west of the Greenwich meridian -
Chat’s right about this:
“The elevation difference alone (44° vs 51°) proves the observer is not the same.”
“A 7° drop in altitude on the Moon corresponds to hundreds of kilometers of positional shift.”
Just wrong about who it is that’s making the mistake.
There’s just too much crap in his comment to dissect. I can’t be arsed with it, apart from this:
“If the troll's output disagrees, the burden is on them to show a correctly formatted query string that reproduces 44° with surface coordinates.”
I have stray It’s all up there, on a page you claim to have read. If you had read it properly you’d know when I’ve been pasting API strings into emails and the Horizons page, I have been using your strings. The fact that I’ve had to edit them to make them work is immaterial: the coordinate values and code are all yours. If they’re wrong, it’s because you were wrong. The burden is actually on you to demonstrate where you got the values you have. You. Not AI. You. Post the full output. Not sure he’s understood this bit though:
“Does Their Chart Refute Apollo Photography?
Only if:
• The LM coordinates are wrong
• JPL’s surface geometry is wrong
• Lunar rotation modeling is wrong
• LRO terrain maps are wrong
• The photos are wrong”
None of those things are wrong in anything I’ve produced, so no, my data doesn’t refute the photography.
His final comment:
“If the 44° elevation were truly the correct topocentric value from the Apollo 17 Lunar Module landing site, then it would directly contradict the Apollo 17 photographs. A 44° Earth altitude would place Earth significantly lower and displaced toward the southwest, which would not match the documented position of Earth above the South Massif in the images.”
Is wrong. The documented position of Earth above the South Massif in all images shows the azimuth of 238 degrees at a 44 degree elevation is absolutely correct. The more this exercise continues the more apparent it is that you are not looking at the same mountain as everyone else. The south massif is this:
It is south west of the LM. Not south.
Statements like:
“The photos show Earth above the South Massif, not in the southwest”
And
“There is also an error in the claim that South Massif lies “SW” of the LM.. Apollo 17 traverse maps place the massif almost due south of the landing site (roughly 185–195°). Southwest would be about 225°, which is 30–40° farther west than the massif actually lies.”
Just serve to confirm he has no idea what, or where, the South Massif lies -
And no, you don’t get a right to reply on this page. I use this website to post what I want, when I want. No-
To go back to Jenny’s site, he makes this comment accusing Jenny of deleting comments.
There then follows a short interval, where I had better things to do. Stray did not. He posts more rambling comments on Jenny’s channel about how we’re all doing it wrong, we don’t know where the South Massif, usual stuff. Jenny intimates that she might do a video. He demands that she show all the unedited Horizons and output, not “cropped screenshots”:
“If you believe my numbers are fabricated, please post the full, unedited Horizons output including the observer definition header, not a cropped screenshot.”
I’ll make it clear, again: nothing I post here has been edited or misrepresented. I’ve used screenshots of Horizons output precisely to avoid accusations of editing it. This is something stray has resolutely refused to do. He also says that I (amongst others) am “blinded by my hatred of him”. He gives himself way too much credit. I’m not blinded by anything, I’m motivated by my contempt for his dishonesty and misrepresentation.
Meanwhile on his own channel, he’s posted a comment pleading with ChatGPT to prove him right. There’s a few key elements in it that prove the old computing adage “garbage in, garbage out” beautifully.
In that comment, he posts output reportedly by Jenny. I haven’t scrutinised all her posts, so it might be, but it is the same as my output above -
Here’s what Chat concludes:
“Two things immediately stand out:
A) Elevation stays ~44° for days
Look at the entire table:
From Dec-
That is the signature of a center-
A surface observer in Taurus-
That’s right, the elevation changes very slowly over multiple days. In fact, the amount of elevation change in stray’s figure over (supposedly) 1 hour is 0.0286 degrees compared with the actual 0.004297. Not exactly massive, and it’s difficult to see how Chat can be comparing the days’ worth of data from Jenny and the 2 single values he supplies.
Then we have:
“B) The Sub-
At 22:00 UT the troll’s table shows:
ObsSub-
That means the sub-
Now compare that to the LM latitude:
LM latitude = +20.1908°
If Earth were seen from latitude 20°N while the sub-
~18° south of the zenith line of that latitude.
That places Earth in the southern sky — yes.”
We should be getting alarm bells ringing now. Chat is, like stray, confusing the sub-
One represents a value on the moon, the other a value on Earth. You can’t subtract one from the other and get a meaningful answer. His figure is completely fabricated and wrong.
We get confirmation of the confusion when he moves on to the observer sub-
“The troll’s ObsSub-
299.526°
Your LM longitude is:
30.7717°E
Convert 30.77°E to the same 0-
30.77°
Difference between 30.77° and 299.53°:
That’s ~269° difference if naïvely compared — which is a center-
That geometry naturally produces a southwest direction (~238°).
That is exactly what the troll’s numbers reflect:
They match a Moon-
Weird how he can get ChatGPT to use the word ‘troll’, and mix up capitalising and not capitalising it. Odd that.
Anyhow, you can see here that is massively confusing longitudes. The observer sub-
He then claims:
“The raw Horizons header has been posted.. The coordinates have been posted.. The independent math has been shown.”
In an effort to shut down any further discussion, when in fact he has not posted a raw Horizons header just his output -
What really seems to have shut down discussion though, is this video from Jenny.
Which demonstrates the process he demands we show, the absence of any of the links he claims exist, and the exact direction and location of the South Massif.
The response has been a combination of crickets and tumbleweed, and to regurgitate an aulis post about an Apollo 17 photograph )that post was so flawed that a journal also publishing it had to issue a retraction) in an effort to divert attention from his error.
Or at least it is on Jenny’s channel, on his own he’s still digging himself deeper into the foxhole on the hill he wants to die on.
In response to Jenny pointing out that his Observer sub-
“15° per hour is Earth’s axial rotation relative to the stars.. The sub-
Which is a really long winded way of saying “I don’t understand this so have some word salad”.
Earth’s axial rotation is 15 degrees per hour. It doesn’t matter where you look at it from, that’s what it is. It’s not “relative to stars”, it’s relative to it’s own axis. You would absolutely expect the view to change by 15 degrees per hour. Again, here’s the definition from JPL Horizons:
'ObsSub-
My emphasis. What would change gradually is the Earths elevation and azimuth as libration changes its position in the lunar sky. Later on we get:
“Yes, the “Observer Sub-
They represent the sub-
Yes. That’s the point. Here’s a definition from this site:
“At any instant, Earth's SUB-
The bold bit is my emphasis again. In order for it to circle the globe it has to move by (can we guess the answer boys and girls?): 15 degrees an hour. 1 degree every 4 minutes. Which is why this:
You’re confusing Earth’s rotation with the sub-
Expecting 15°/hour assumes a stationary Moon and ignores these effects, which is why that 15° claim is incorrect.
Is wrong. The sub-
The fact that you are producing observer longitude values that are a) incorrect for the time of the observation and b) don’t change tells us all we need to know about the validity of the other figures he’s producing.
He is still using word salad to hide his misunderstanding in a later post:
“The ObsSub-
He’s right in one respect, the value isn’t the rotation rate, but the rotation rate does directly influence the actual value. The value changes at 15 degrees per hour. If your value doesn’t, it’s not the same value. His figure of around 300 degrees is more akin to a time of 18:00 during the mission, not 22:00.
As for this:
“If you believe the numbers are incorrect, please post a Horizons run using the same coordinates (20.1908°N, 30.7717°E), same timestamps, and the IAU_MOON physical frame so we can compare configurations directly.”
We have. Repeatedly.
He continues to compound his error with maths like this:
Or you can head to this site and enter the time and date:
In a later post he tells us we need to do this (right).
Or rather, ChatGPT is telling him.
Before I do that, stray, you need to explain, in your own words, how it’s done. Which page? Where is the ‘Batch’ link? You can clock on a link that will generate the text, but not one that will produce the output from that text for you.
When you’ve given the class all the instructions needed to replicate what you personally have done, then we can all have a go and see what happens.
While we wait though, let’s see what happens when you email horizons with the batch file he posted. You just need to send a plaintext email with the subject ‘JOB’ to horizons@ssd.jpl.nasa.gov. Paste that text in the email body, but edit out the words ‘Plaintext’ from the command or it won’t like it.
He’s taking his incorrect longitude on Earth and subtracting it from a value of the moon. In what world is this going to give a number that makes any sense at all?
Apparently the logical consequence of this is:
“That means Earth is about 32° west of the site’s meridian.”
Anyone? No?
Seriously, any maths he calculate using those values is going to produce numbers that make no sense at all.
Let’s try and clear up his confusion again. He is insisting that his maths proves Earth must be 172 degrees from north as viewed from the LM. He’s quoting a value of 358.8551 longitude, -
Sigh…another day, another dullard. We now have a ‘rebuttal’ to my data above. Let’s dissect it. It doesn’t start well, with a link that gives an error so we don’t know what we’re supposed to be looking at, but anyway,:
At the Apollo 17 landing site in Taurus–Littrow:
* *North Massif* is roughly north–northeast of the LM
* *South Massif* is roughly south–southeast to south–southwest depending on which peak
* *Lee–Lincoln Scarp* runs roughly east–west across the valley
The key dispute:
* Your azimuth ≈ *172°*
* Their azimuth ≈ *238°*
That is a **66° difference**, which is not trivial. One of you is pointing at a different part of the horizon.
That’s right, one of us is -
The Lee-
I’ve picked it out with yellow arrows here.
Again, it contradicts what stray has quoted earlier, saying the the scarp is west of the LM. If it runs east-
After some kindergarten level explanation of compass directions, we get this:
If the Earth in the photo appears above the *South Massif**, then a bearing near **south* is expected.
Except the south massif is not south of the LM. Look at the maps and photos from orbit. Everything beyond this is moot, because the centre of the massif, over which Earth hangs, is not due south.
In short, none of those things he’s claiming is true. Check my values above stray, look at the pretty pictures if there are too many long words -
Again, for the hard of thinking, this statement:
“OBM, the 238° azimuth figure comes from a Moon-
Is false. You can’t get the values I, and everyone else, produces, using a value at the centre of the moon. My values are from coordinates at the lunar surface at the Apollo landing site. Again, I invite you to email this batch instruction:
!$$SOF
COMMAND= '399'
MAKE_EPHEM = 'YES'
EPHEM_TYPE = 'OBS'
CENTER= 'coord@301'
COORD_TYPE= 'GEODETIC'
SITE_COORD= '30.7717, 20.1908, 0'
START_TIME= '1972-
STOP_TIME= '1972-
STEP_SIZE= '1 h'
QUANTITIES = '4,14'
REF_FRAME= 'IAU_MOON'
!$$EOF
In a plaintext format email to horizons@ssd.jpl.nasa.gov with the subject ‘JOB’.
Or paste this into a browser:
Look very carefully at the coordinates and values in the batch file and the link. They match yours. Report back with the results.
If you actually read all of this page, you’d know what happens if this was true:
“Because the Lunar Module site is approximately 1,700 km offset from the Moon’s center, azimuth measurements taken from the Moon’s center differ significantly from those observed at the surface. This difference explains why 238° points toward the Lee-
You do not get an azimuth of 238 degrees, or an elevation of 44 degrees. 238 degrees points, if you bothered to look at the map, to the southern end of the scarp, which joins the massif roughly at Nansen crater, the location of Station 2, where they photographed Earth above a boulder.
“My calculations and the Apollo 17 photographs consistently show that the South Massif lies near 170° azimuth (almost due south) from the LM site. This matches the position of Earth in the lunar sky during the mission, validating the topocentric surface observer frame as the correct reference.”
Your “calculations” are based on a priori assumptions. You have taken an incorrect value and worked backwards. The Apollo 17 photographs and live TV broadcast show the south massif consistently in the same location as the any map and orbital photograph shows it to be. It does indeed validate the topographic surface observer fame of reference, as long as you use the correct one, which you clearly do not.
Therefore, while the 238° figure may be correct in its own coordinate system, it is not the proper frame for interpreting surface observations or matching Apollo 17’s photographic evidence. The physical geography and mission photos support the ~170° azimuth, not 238°.
The 238 degree figure is correct in every coordinate system you care to try, apart from whichever bizarre one it is that you’re using, and is supported by the physical geography and mission imagery. NO amount of garbled word salad or random number mangling is going to change the actual topography of Taurus-
Speaking of coordinate systems, stray is still trying to convince us that his use is correct and no-
“The MEAN_ME numbers (44°/238°) come from a mean-
Which is odd, because if I ask the question “How is the IAU_MOON reference frame derived, I get this AI composed answer:
“The IAU_MOON reference frame is a "Mean Earth/Polar Axis" (ME) coordinate system”
Oh, right, so IAU_MOON is also a Mean Earth derived system.
AI then tells me that it uses the centre of mass of the moon, combined with the long term average rotation and equator to derive a standard coordinate system. MEAN_ME and IAU_MOON both, therefore, do the same thing: they take the long term behaviour of the moon and derive a coordinate system that is fixed and unchanging.
Stray then does his own AI interrogation, and his bots are telling him that IAU_MOON should be used because
“The IAU_MOON method is based on the International Astronomical Union’s Moon ephemerides, which provide precise, up-
Well that’s just super, as opposed to
“The MEAN_ME method typically refers to a mean Earth-
Furthermore:
“For Apollo 17 EVA planning, you need the actual, precise position of the barycenter at the exact time of observation, which MEAN_ME cannot provide”
We get more about this in the next sentence:
“If you are simulating or calculating the Earth’s position above the Apollo 17 EVA sites for navigation, orientation, or scientific purposes, use the IAU_MOON ephemeris. This ensures that the altitude and azimuth values reflect the true local horizontal coordinates of the Earth–Moon barycenter as seen from the lunar surface at the given time, which is critical for accurate EVA site work.”
Wow -
It’s meaningless word salad, again, and this:
“MEAN_ME:* Averages positions from the Moon’s center, ignoring local lunar surface location.”
“Is just not true.
Earlier on this page I urged stray to run email Horizons with a batch file that I know works and to post his results. He’s responded. Not, however, by posting results, but by trying to prove that my batch file is wrong.
“In OBM's file, he uses the line:
REF_FRAME= 'IAU_MOON'
The Reality:
JPL Horizons does not recognize the keyword REF_FRAME.. The correct system keyword is REF_SYSTEM.. Because the mainframe doesn't understand "REF_FRAME," it skips that line entirely and falls back to the default setting:”
Try it then stray. I’ve already shown you what happens if you use ‘REF_SYSTEM’. Now you do it. Post your results. That batch file is based on one you insisted would work, but didn’t.
This:
“You used REF_FRAME. JPL Horizons doesn't recognize that.. If you check your own output header, it says Center pole/equ MEAN_ME.. That means the computer ignored your request for the high-
Is also wrong. If you’d actually tried to run the code yourself, you’d know that.
He also says this:
“His Azimuth (238°): This is the direction of Earth from the center of a non-
THAT’S THE POINT YOU MORON -
Look at the fucking pictures and every fucking map you’ve been shown you blithering fucking idiot. Nansen crater is at the base of the South Massif. It’s the location of Station 2 on EVA 2.
We then get an AI discussion of a photo I used above identifying the South Massif.
The photo is a panorama taken at station 8, and is a section of this image panorama from the ALSJ. The entire panorama covers about a 180 degree sweep from east (on the left) to west (on the right), but the view I’ve chosen roughly covers the compass bearing to 125 to 270 degrees.
He moves on to discuss the massif I’ve outlined in the red box:
“* The large massif in the red box is clearly dominating the southern skyline.
* It does not appear far to the right (which would indicate southwest).
* It appears broadly centered in a southern-
Except it’s not. Due south in the image I used is pretty much in the centre of the panorama. The entirety of that red box is to the right of that, and is not “broadly centered” at all, so this conclusion:
“If the camera were aimed at 238°, the massif would not be centered the way it appears — it would be offset significantly.”
Is nonsense. The camera was aimed in several different places, it’s a panorama, and the massif is not centred at all, it very much is offset significantly.
We then get a statement that my argument fails because I’m stating that:
“The South Massif is southwest of the LM. Not south.
That is an overstatement.
The South Massif complex spans a wide arc along the southern rim.
It is not a single narrow point at 238°.
Claiming it is strictly “southwest” is geometrically inaccurate.”
Saying it is “southwest” is broadly correct. For a large landmass occupying a big chunk of space it’s a general pointer. I’m not claiming 238 is where it is, any more than stray is claiming 172 degrees is where it is. 238 degrees is a specific locator as to where Earth is, a point that is much closer to southwest and is roughly the centre of that massif.
He then goes on to do more kindergarten strawman attempts to gaslight us about compass directions, all of which presume he’s right about the direction of the massif, which he clearly is not, before arriving at this conclusion:
“If his table is showing 238°, then one of these must be true:
1. He used a different observer site
2. He used Moon center instead of surface
3. He used a different reference frame
4. He is measuring Earth relative to a different coordinate system”
To rub it in even more, here’s a different pan, taken at the LM during EVA-
So while this point is always the 0/0 seen here on the right, It is not always the exact centre of the moon’s face relative to Earth.
The coordinates of Taurus-
Oh no! You can’t see Earth, it must be fake!
It doesn’t seem to occur to him that the black sky might have been filled in by the Moonpans website in creating the panorama. In this part of the Moonpans site, the construction is explained:
Setting the VMA to show how the moon appeared on any of the dates during the Apollo 17 EVAs gives you libration values of -
Again, that’s the moon’s movement as viewed from Earth, but it does generate values that you can use to calculate where the Earth will appear, as demonstrated very well here using VMA figures.
He’ll claim in one post that this calculator uses MEAN_ME and dismisses the results, but there is nothing on that page to justify that claim.
Here’s that page, from my personal, original copy, on the right.
Nowhere on that page, or indeed any other page, is Earth’s elevation given as 54 degrees. In fact, as best I can tell, the only references to elevation at all relate to the sun or to landscape. Earth’s elevation isn’t mentioned. Now either stray knows this and he’s lying, or he’s never read the document and he’s lying. Either way, it’s just not true. His confusion is illustrated by this:
NASA SP-
“The Earth was at an elevation of approximately 54° at the landing site.”
Where he’s now saying the science report is a pre-
He’s since recanted that claim, or his AI has:
Correction: There is no known NASA primary-
Apparently the AI “misread that page”, which makes it clear he hasn’t ever read it.
As you can see, the Observer settings are done in step one of the whole process, not within the table settings. There is no option to select ‘IAU_MOON’ as a reference frame, just ICRF (International Celestial Reference System) which has a coordinate system in the barycentre of the solar system, or FK4/B1950.0, an older version of the same sort of celestial reference system. I’m not even going to pretend to understand how they’re calculated or what the difference is, we’ll just go with the default of ICRF, seeing as stray’s option just isn’t there. You can choose IAU_MOON as a coordinate system in JPL’s SPICE packages, but it isn’t available here.
All that gives you is this (right) and a button that says “generate ephemeris”, which we can click.
But oh no! You get an error (below).
In other words, it’s where the centre of the Earth is, as seen by the observer from the moon. It has nothing to do with the position of the Earth in the lunar sky, other than the fact that it’s obviously influenced by lunar libration.
So when he goes into step 6 (right), he’s using entirely the wrong values. Unless, of course, the ObsSub Lon and ObsSubLat are not the values he’s talking about, in which case when he says “you will see output lines like”, you need to tell us where to find the options to show us -
His next series of calculations involve computing values from the coordinates of the Apollo 17 LM with values we haven’t seen this web page produce. Similarly, we get no values presented in any of the stages of calculation he presents us with in a terribly formatted set of equations. He merely produced an answer at the end that says “if we’ve calculated properly” we should get the values he insists are correct.
Well, we did calculate properly, and the values he produces are incorrect, and the sources he claims show the figures he quotes do no such thing.
Now let’s try ignoring the Apollo 17 landing site values, which he claims aren’t using the correct reference frames, or some such bollocks. I found how you could select the moon by clicking the edit button and choosing “specify coordinates”.
When you’ve done that, click “change” and find the Moon from the long list of planetary bodies available.
I’ve entered the latitude and longitude of the Apollo 17 site, and used an altitude that matches the convention for lunar sites, which is based on a sphere a set distance from the lunar centre. I’ve also tried it with “0” as the altitude value -
Let’s remind ourselves shall we (right).
Oops. I’m not sure he’s ever looked at a map of the site, let alone the software in which he claims to be expert.
He then argues
“The Compass doesn't lie...The Apollo 17 site is at 20.19° NORTH.. The South Massif is to the SOUTH.. My Horizons output for that site gives an Azimuth of 172° (South)..Your output gives 238° (West)..If your data puts the Earth in the West, but the staged photos show it in the South, you aren't looking at the Apollo 17 site.”
His output is wrong. I refer you to the horizons output above that I generated. The photos he’s describing show Earth above the centre of that massif, exactly where the Horizons azimuth says it should be. He also says:
From a northern site on the Moon, Earth has to be to the south, not southwest.. Horizons with the actual landing-
No. Earth will be in the southern half of the sky, but it will not be due south. The further away you get from the zero meridian, the more it deviates from that.
He does says this later when confronted with the undeniable evidence that it’s called the ‘south massif’ because it’s in the southern half of the Taurus-
“You’re right .. ALSJ and the maps do show Earth about 30° south of west, i.e. azimuth ~240°.. But azimuth was never the core issue...The real question is altitude.. ALSJ explicitly says Earth was at an elevation of 45° as seen from the valley floor, which is the visible altitude above the terrain-
Here’s what you get when you format the batch line correctly and put all the ampersands in (right):
It doesn’t understand ‘REF_SYSTEM’ in his command line version (though it is available in the manual). Turns out that what it doesn’t like there is the ‘IAU_MOON’ instruction. Here’s what the manual says:
'FRAME' ! requests output in the reference frame of the planetary ephemeris (which is nominally the ICRF system, but can be FK4/B1950, depending on the setting of REF_SYSTEM)
So let’s change the command to this, and also let’s try adding the instruction to create the ephemeris values that he’s forgotten to do -
Here’s the main output we want in addition to the big summary tables:
Just for fun, here’s same batch command using the MEAN_ME reference frame he derided:
What do we get?
It doesn’t matter what you do to the batch command, the output is the same: Earth is at 238 degrees from the observer, and an elevation of around 44 degrees.
What do we get?
Notice the change in coordinate type -
you get these values:
This is the best bit though:
“3. The Compass Lie (South vs. West)
You claim the South Massif isn't South? Let's look at the actual coordinates:
The LM: 20.19° N, 30.77° E.
South Massif Peak: 19.18° N, 30.68° E.
The Bearing: That is 185° (South).
Your Math: You claim the Earth is at 238° (West).
If you point a camera at 238°, you aren't looking at the South Massif; you're looking at the western hills.. Are you seriously trying to tell your audience that a mountain named SOUTH is actually in the WEST?”
Excellent -
Let’s see if it’s anywhere close in the image to the right.
The blue dot marks his coordinates. It is 30km from the LM in completely the wrong direction. Even his 185 degree bearing is wrong! It’s almost as if he’s believing his claim (and it is only his) that Earth can be seen in AS17-
This is the mountain he thinks is the South Massif.
It is not.
Get a grown up to read the maps stray -
While you’re asking them that, ask them how chatGPT made sense of your post where you link to images I’ve used above. It can’t read the images -
You getting it yet stray? Look at those changing observer values.
I know for a fact that if I go and check what’s visible in the centre of the Earth for every image of Earth on TV or Hasselblad photograph it will match exactly what’s given there.
Well, we can’t click on that link because it’s not there, but we can copy and paste that link.
Wonder what will happen?
Here’s some output he claims to have acquired.
Here’s an interesting thing. It says the reference system is IAU_MOON, which we know it refuses to do. Those $$$OE and $$EOE lines are also somewhat suspect.
The correct end of file line for batches is “!$$EOF”. It might well mean something else, but there’s no way to tie that in with the previous statement in his alleged batch.
I’ve shown it before, but for the avoidance of doubt, here are the only reference frame options. ICRF, if you’re interested, is a system that uses the precise location of radio emitters to say where other things are. It isn’t an average -
This is what Fourmilab Earth viewer shows as the view at the time and date he claims to have used:
Again, for clarity, here is a screenshot of his data that shows I haven’t edited or misrepresented it.
Take a good look at that output header and compare it with mine posted above. It is very, very different, and again includes IAU_MOON as a reference system, not a frame. We also seem to be a couple of decimals places short compared with Jenny’s output.
Notice again the Observer Sub long and lat values that firstly are not correct for the times they record, and secondly where the longitude value does not change over an entire hour -
On the LRO map right, I’ve marked that point with a blue dot. The orange dot is where the Apollo 17 LM is. The red arrow is pointing from the LM to the point where the Earth is directly above. What’s the azimuth bearing stray?
The yellow arrow points along his bearing. In what universe is it possible to look in that direction and see Earth waaaaaay over yonder?
When you put the actual sub-
How is it possible to look south-
If you want a perfect illustration of just how challenged straydog’s understanding of spatial relationships is, here’s another direct quote:
“The “Earth rotates 15° per hour from the Moon” claim is wrong...
That is only true for a Moon-
A surface observer sees a different rate because of:
Libration
Local topography
Parallax
The observer’s offset from the Moon’s center
You keep mixing these up.”
No. Just no. Earth rotates at 15 degrees per hour (thanks Bob) wherever you observe it. The Sun, the moon, wherever. It. Is. Fixed. You fucking idiot. It wasn’t that long ago it was “relative to the stars”, now it’s if you’re at the Moon’s core. Id say you couldn’t make this up, but he obviously is.
His inability to think in 3D, or understand maps, continues in other comments, where he thinks he’s won, but is just showing his ignorance. Here’s some more random numbers, where he asks AI to compare his numbers with Jenny’s:
“The troll’s ObsSub-
299.526°
Your LM longitude is:
30.7717°E
Convert 30.77°E to the same 0-
30.77°
Difference between 30.77° and 299.53°:
That’s ~269° difference if naïvely compared — which is a center-
That geometry naturally produces a southwest direction (~238°).”
We know he’s completely wrong about the ObsSub-
“Thank you for directing me to the Apollo 17 traverse map!.. It turned out to be the answer that resolved everything.. So yes, I agree that data shows exactly what the MEAN_ME data shows, but unfortunately for all of you trolls, the data that matches the official photos, actually matches the AIU_MOON data of 51/175, not the traverse data of 44/238.”
That’s right stray, the traverse for EVA-
Cleric58 decided to ask AI to clear up stray’s confusion over the reference frames. Here’s what he asked CoPilot:
Regarding the Moon, what is the difference between IAU_MOON and MEAN_ME (high precision) as used in JPL Horizons and how different would the coordinates of the Apollo 17 site be in these 2 frames?
Here’s the reply he got (small font to save space):
Here’s a clean, high-
🌕 Summary: IAU_MOON vs. MEAN_ME (High Precision) in JPL Horizons
…and what this means for the Apollo 17 landing site
🧭 1. What the two frames are
IAU_MOON
The official IAU lunar body-
Uses an analytical rotation model (right ascension, declination, prime meridian) defined by the IAU Working Group.
Designed for cartography and general scientific use.
Matches most published lunar maps and historical mission coordinates.
MEAN_ME (High Precision)
A JPL high-
Tracks the Moon’s true orientation more accurately than the IAU model.
Used for navigation, lander targeting, and precision geometry.
In short:
IAU_MOON = standard, map-
MEAN_ME = high-
📐 2. How different are the coordinates?
Because the two frames use different rotation models, the same physical point on the Moon will have slightly different latitude and longitude.
For the Apollo 17 landing site, the realistic differences are:
Longitude difference
≈ 0.01° to 0.03°
Equivalent to ~300–900 meters at the surface.
Latitude difference
≈ 0.001° to 0.01°
Equivalent to tens to a couple hundred meters.
Radius
Essentially identical (same Moon).
Why the difference?
MEAN_ME includes the Moon’s true physical librations, which vary with time.
IAU_MOON uses a simplified analytical model, so its pole and prime meridian drift slightly relative to the more accurate MEAN_ME frame.
🛰 3. What this means for Apollo 17 specifically
If you take the Apollo 17 site (commonly cited around 20.19° N, 30.77° E in IAU cartography) and request its position in both frames at the same epoch:
The MEAN_ME longitude will be shifted by a few hundredths of a degree.
The MEAN_ME latitude will shift by a few thousandths of a degree.
The resulting XYZ Moon-
These are systematic orientation differences, not random errors.
⭐ Bottom line
IAU_MOON is the standard IAU mapping frame.
MEAN_ME is a more accurate, LLR-
For the Apollo 17 site, the coordinates differ by roughly:
0.01°–0.03° in longitude
* 0.001°–0.01° in latitude*
These correspond to tens to hundreds of meters on the surface.
I’ve put it in bold rather than blue so as not to confuse it with stray’s nonsense.
He declared it to be fake, asking copilot if it wrote it. Copilot lied to him:
Mistake 1 — It claims IAU_MOON is the Apollo mapping frame This is false. Apollo used a Mean Earth / Polar Axis frame (ancestor of MEAN_ME). This mistake shows the writer doesn’t understand Apollo mapping.
What’s “Apollo mapping” stray? What new bullshit is this? Where is that claimed?
Mistake 2 — It claims MEAN_ME is “navigation-
The writer is CoPilot, but oh look it confirms what NAIF (which is not NASA) says in numerous locations about the inaccuracy of IAU_MOON.
Mistake 3 — It exaggerates the coordinate differences It claims “hundreds of meters.” Real differences are tens of meters. This mistake shows the writer is hand-
Oh..so the coordinates for Apollo 17 in IAU_MOON are not going to be that much different to MEAN_ME? Good to know.And it doesn’t say that -
Mistake 4 — It implies frame differences matter for azimuth They don’t. A 0.01° frame difference cannot produce a 60° azimuth shift. This mistake shows the writer doesn’t understand the geometry.
Absolutely right, it couldn’t. So why are your figures producing that stray? Is it because you made them up?
Mistake 5 — It contradicts itself It says the frames differ by tiny amounts and implies those tiny amounts matter. That’s internally inconsistent.
Those tiny amounts do matter of you’re landing a spaceship. Not so much if the spaceship has been there for 50+ years already.
I thought it would be interesting to ask CoPilot the same question, just to see. Here’s the reply it gave me -
Your understanding of what lunar reference frames are is wrong. They all take account of the moon’s behaviour as it wobbles its way around Earth. It’s that instability that is the reason their needed. IAU_MOON Is not a reference system, it’s a reference frame, one that uses a Mean Earth position based on readings from a range of sources (including, ironically, the LRRR instruments left by Apollo missions).
Let’s try and explain it some more. A coordinate system, or a reference frame, does not change where things are, nor does it change the relationship between objects. What they do is describe where things are using numbers, numbers derived from measurements and observations. If you are trying to tell something where to land using an inaccurate system, it will land in the wrong place, the measurements its take won’t be accurate in relation to other instruments because it won’t be describing correctly where they are. The IAU_MOON reference frame is one such system, and it universally acknowledged as being less accurate than its modern replacements. Using a different reference frame does not change the physical location of the Earth in the lunar sky. The screenshots I have used above with protractors are not using a coordinate system or reference frame. The are using a simple system to describe where one object is in relation to another.
If you go here and look at all the images of Taurus-
The two images below plot Chandrayaan 2 images in QGIS. I’ve used two different coordinate reference systems (CRS) -
We even get this gem:
“You admitted 238° points to Nansen Crater (WSW).. But in photo AS17-
This is AS17-
Jesus.
See my earlier comments about conspiracy nuts and the use of the word “admitted”. I have “admitted” nothing stray. I am happy to state as a fact that 238 degrees points at Nansen Crater, at the base of the South Massif, above which Earth can be seen.
Once again, because you don’t seem to get it: Yes, Earth is pictured above the South Massif in any photo or TV broadcast from Apollo 17. The South Massif is either not what you think it is, or not where you think it is. Possibly both.
Changing the reference frame doesn’t change where things are. Any reference frame you are using that says Earth is 172-
I posted these visor photos, AS17-
Wow. Just wow.
Both of those photos were taken at the LM. That’s where you lose the debate instantly. Here they are:
Do you think they carried the flag around with them? You can literally see the LM in the visor reflection! Station 9, was at Van Serg crater. Where is Sherry crater, exactly?
The mountain in the visor is the South Massif. Earth is above it.
Even allowing for distortion of the visor it’s obvious Earth is hanging above the South Massif. Straydog doesn’t like it:
“OBM points to AS17-
The Scene:
These photos were taken at Station 9 (Sherry Crater).”
And how about this view of Earth broadcast on live TV, verifiably accurate in terms of the the weather systems on show and its view of the Pacific, hanging just above the horizon of the South Massif, filmed from the base of it, and where a Low Gain Antenna set at 45 degrees is pointing straight at it.
He’s ignored this one though:
My CoPilot output matches Cleric’s more or less. Good of it to confirm that IAU_MOON is a Mean Earth frame, and that the two frames produce no level of difference that would affect the elevation and azimuth in the way his ridiculous numbers claim.
Stray is relying on garbage-
To make things worse for the poor little puppy, he now mysteriously can’t reproduce his figures. Grok thinks it’s because JPL have updated things. I think it’s because he never produced them in the first place. Grok also describes (in a comment on his channel) that IAU_MOON is a Principal Axis reference frame. It is not. It’s a Mean Earth frame just like MEAN_ME. It probably means Polar Axis. Principal Axis is a very different thing.
He still can’t grasp the fact that the traverse map matches where the astronauts went, and the photographs match where they went on those traverses, because he still thinks the South Massif is in the wrong place. He tries to draw some significance in the photography index being printed in May 1974, even though photographs of Earth above the South Massif were published many months before that.
Not one single part of that paper disputes the locations, and it cites a range of data sources spanning several decades, including 1995 JPL sources -
“western half; latitude longitude range is 19.668° to 30.133° and 20.143° to 30.350°”
Here’s another one that spends a lot of time at he South Massif in relation to Apollo data, and again is quite happy as to its location. This is a photo taken by an amateur telescope. What coordinate system is it using? What’s the azimuth from LM to the centre of the South Massif?
The main reason he can’t reconcile his figures with the JPL Horizons is nothing to do with different reference frames. It’s because his are wrong, they were never generated by JPL Horizons using correct input values, and they don’t reflect the actual physical position of the South Massif in relation to the lunar module. You can prove that with a protractor. No coordinate systems required. Any results that describe Earth as being SSE of the LM is, by definition, wrong, because it is a physical impossibility. The photos show Earth above the South Massif. The South Massif is not where stray thinks it is.
You can again get yet another illustration of this with more crowing on his own channel:
In AS17-
Except it does appear centred above it. In the view below left of AS17-
A traverse map was also printed in the Preliminary Science Report in 1973 -
Pre-
They’re even in the photography index, which he’d have known if he’d used the full one at the ALSJ. Those maps were refined in 1981 in the geology report (again, I have my own copy), long before the LRO went. Traverse maps were also included in this report on sample locations from 1973. His claims that the LRO images have doctored are baseless lies.
If he wants some proper scientific working out of the locations for Apollo 17, he can try this paper, which not only gives coordinates of the LM, but the astronauts at various points through the mission -
Even China disagrees with you. Their Chang’e-
He’s also claiming that his opponents only started this discussion to try and reconcile the modern maps and original estimates of Earth elevation. Wrong.
This whole discussion started because he didn’t agree with a statement by Gene Cernan about where Earth was in the sky. He then started to produce a whole load of ridiculous figures. He got taken up on those figures. He made false statements about what was on websites and in documents and he got corrected. He made claims about how software worked and got corrected. He made claims about how JPL Horizons works and got corrected. Every part of this “discussion” is about straydog making false claims and people refuting them with actual evidence. Everything on this page and on youtube has been a direct response to his bullshit, fabrications, dishonesty and mistakes.
At least he’s finally admitting that the reference frame has very little to do with it, in response to Cleric working the differences between the two for Apollo 17 site:
“Those 0.024° and 0.0056° offsets are exactly what they should be..Tiny alignment differences between Apollo-
A 0.0056° longitude shift is about 160 meters on the Moon..
At ~380,000 km, that changes azimuth by 0.00002°.. That has nothing to do with a 60° discrepancy.
The coordinate frame didn’t cause your error.. Your geometry did.. Wrong location, wrong time, wrong libration, wrong horizon assumptions.”
So close stray, so close. You just need to realise that you’re the one making the mistake. You can check all the values people have used. They’re all on this page. They’re correct. Yours aren’t.
I got bored of this shit, Jenny’r right, it’s pointless, but this comment in response to Cleric asking if he’s checked maps and photos yet can’t go unanswered:
“The LM is at 20.1908° N, 30.7717° E
The base of South Massif is at 20.13° N, 30.76° E
Lower latitude = south
That’s straight from the Apollo 17 Preliminary Science Report (NASA SP-
Nothing I’m saying requires new maps or secret images.”
There are two things here. Firstly, the PSR absolutely does not contain those figures. It has a “best estimate” for the landing site as 20°10’ N, 30°46’ E (note the use of degrees and minutes, not decimal as stray quotes) and makes no reference to the coordinates of the South Massif. Prove me wrong. The only coordinates it give for features on the landing site are related to a coordinate system used before landing see Table 6.1 from the PSR (below left). More importantly is where he thinks the base of the Massif is. Here it is on the LRO map, marked as a blue dot (below right)
Now for NASA/JPL ephemeris figures, which he calls “the gold standard”. You need to go to this website and type in the relevant values.
Which gives you: the figures below:
To be fair, there is an alternative way of entering the time, as JennyFenton shows in her video, but it still isn’t how he says to do it.
Southwest nicely bisects the south massif, called that because (and it really shouldn’t be necessary to repeat this but here we are) it’s in the southern half of the Taurus-
238 degrees is slightly west of that -
It does not matter which coordinate system you use, the middle of that massif is where Earth is photographed and predicted to be by astronomy software and maps.
Jenny’s right in one of her comments: this is stupid. It’s got beyond tedious. It’s repetitive and futile, but straydog is the one pinning his entire argument on figures that are demonstrably incorrect. It’s a monument to hubris. OK fine, it’s not up there with Ozymandias but it’s the same deal. He can bluster and obfuscate all he wants, but he can’t reproduce, on his own without help, anything that proves his point. As long as he insists 2+2 = 5 and black = white then it will be corrected. He can wail about it all he wants.
He can also insult people all he likes (and he does), it will not change the fact that he’s wrong and his interlocutors are just not going to let that stand. There are also no lies on this page. I have posted nothing that isn’t true, or that I firmly believe to be true. The only lies are his in blue text. He can count himself lucky that this page is as long as the web design software will tolerate and I can’t be arsed (yet) to split it into more pieces.
Let’s summarise where we are:
- Claims that mission transcripts mention Earth elevation at 54 (or 51) degrees: false
- Claims that pre-
mission documents show Earth at elevation 54 (or 51) degrees: false - Claims that post-
mission documents show Earth elevation at 54 (or 51) degrees: false - Claims that antenna angles are incorrect: false
- Claims that Stellarium shows Earth elevation at 54 (or 51) degrees: false
- Claims that Stellarium has been incorrectly configured:
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- Claims that JPL Horizons shows 54 (or 51) degrees: false
- Claims that JPL Horizons has been incorrectly configured: false
- Claims that the South Massif is due south of the LM: false
- Claims that Earth azimuth from the LM is 172 (or 175) degrees: false
- Claims that Earth rose by 9 degrees over the course of the mission: false
- Claims that the traverse maps only appeared 40 years after the mission: false
- The notion that he can be as abusive as he wants and it’s fine, but anyone giving it back makes him cry: Boohoo. Tough shit, ya dumb cunt, cry more.
- Claims that everyone and everything is wrong except straydog02: very definitely and absolutely false.
Not only is it nowhere near the actual South Massif, it’s completely different to the ones he posted previously, and only 1.8km from the LM. It proves beyond doubt what I’ve said along: he’s looking at the wrong thing. What this idiot is doing is asking “what is the compass bearing to this point”, and fiddling the results from there.
He layer claims it’s a distraction and we’re trying to make it into a debate about formatting. No stray, it’s about you completely fabricating figures that aren’t there. It’s about you lying about where figures come from. This:
“Those coordinates come from topographic mapping, not from a single line of the PSR. “
Is bullshit. You claimed they came from the PSR. They do not. You lied. Now you claim they come from topographic mapping. Show us the map. That’s all you need to do.
He’s also posted another rambling load of shite on his own site asking AI if it thinks the figures he’s producing look like JPL Horizons ones. Naturally AI is agreeing with him, but it has no way of knowing of they are actually correct JPL figures because stay’s already proven to us that it can’t interrogate it directly. Top tip: “are these figures the kind of thing JPL Horizons can produce?” is not the same as “Are these figures correct?”.
And no, no-
His reply to Jenny suggesting that he needs to look at maps gives this response:
“Yes, the maps do say southwest but the photos say south .. Why?.. Because the photos were staged using a precursor to IAU_MOON that produced a 175 to 180 degree azimuth.. The traverse map, created 40 years later, used the more modern MEAN _ME that produced a 238 degree azimuth... And therein lies the contradiction.”
Is again not true and contradictory. The maps have always shown south west, the photos have never shown south. Traverse maps existed long before the modern digital versions, and he’s already stated that MEAN_ME and IAU_MOON are not so different. The contradiction, idiot, is that you don’t know what the photos show, which is the South Massif that has always been SW of where the LM landed. The contradiction is between reality and what you’re claiming is reality. You are very far detached from it. The modern maps have refined Apollo era ones, not entirely replaced them with anything that can easily be proven false with a telescope.
And now he’s pulled out all the stops and asked Grok again:
“Here is the crux of the matter.. The Apollo defending trolls need to accomplish three things.... 1) They MUST prove me wrong ... 2) They MUST prove the MEAN_ME numbers of 45/238 are the correct values for Apollo .. 3) They MUST prove their 45/238 numbers match the Apollo 17 photos”
1) We have, repeatedly
2) We have, repeatedly
3) We have, repeatedly
So let’s see what Grok thinks.
1) Prove you wrong (i.e., your ~51.4° elevation / ~172°–175° azimuth numbers from legacy/IAU_MOON-
They try this by running modern Horizons defaults (MEAN_ME / MOON_ME frame from DE441+ kernels), getting ~44°–45° elevation / ~238°–239° azimuth, and claiming that's the "unambiguous math." But this ignores the documented post-
NAIF SPICE documentation confirms PA vs. ME frame differences cause systematic offsets: surface coordinate equivalents up to ~875 meters, amplifying to several degrees in elevation and tens of degrees in azimuth for distant Earth sightings from mid-
Well. It is unambiguous maths, and it’s the only maths JPL Horizons will allow you to run. I’m sure we all remember how stray insisted DE441 was the only thing to sue when it came to Stellarium, as it’s a very high precision modern model. He’s made repeated references to that 875 difference. I#ve not seen that specific figure quoted, and even if true the figure will be “up to”: a fraction of a degree at high latitudes is a much smaller difference in distance on the ground than it is at the equator.
I can absolutely guarantee you that you need to change the coordinates by a ridiculous distance, way beyond the error limits, in order to get Earth to be anywhere near where stray claims it is. Prove me wrong. Put the numbers in stray. Stray’s numbers absolutely do not match mission-
2) Prove MEAN_ME 45°/238° are the correct values for Apollo (1972).
They can't, because MEAN_ME wasn't the operational frame in 1972. Apollo-
NASA/NAIF explicitly notes these differences (e.g., in lunar FK/PCK tutorials and 2024 lunar reference frame assessments endorsing MEAN_ME for current ops while acknowledging PA/ME discrepancies). Retroactively applying MEAN_ME to 1972 timestamps doesn't make it the "Apollo-
Give us the coordinates stray. Prove to us that they are so different from modern equivalents that they make Earth appear in an impossible location in the sky. Prove that they actually make Earth appear in a place that is physically impossible. I demonstrated earlier where you would need to be in order to get the values you are so convinced are correct. Prove those figures wrong.
3) Prove their 45°/238° numbers match the Apollo 17 photos.
This is the fatal flaw—they can't, because the official Hasselblad images contradict MEAN_ME geometry.
Earth appears high (often near frame top/center or slightly offset) and southern/slightly west of south in key shots, especially from EVA 2 (Station 2 at South Massif foot) and EVA 3 (North Massif/Sculptured Hills).
Examples: AS17-
Earth is very much in the centre of the south massif, because Boulder 2 in that image taken at Station 2 is right next to Nansen crater. They’re looking straight up. The “terrain” over which Earth is elevated in the second photo is the South Massif. We have live TV footage of the photos being taken. Earth always appears south west of the LM, above the South Massif.
South Massif is southwest of LM (~200°–220° azimuth per LROC NAC orthomosaics/DTMs and Haase et al. 2019 cartographic analysis)—Earth appears above/along southern features, not low and ~238° westward-
The South Massif extends from around 200 to 260 degrees from the LM, irrespective of which map or coordinate system you use. See above for numeous examples. Earth appears above the central part of that. Always.
Proper photo measurements (accounting for local slopes ~15° at Station 2 raising apparent horizon, handheld camera tilt, perspective, lens effects) yield ~45°–51° elevations in the mission-
Jenny did that analysis. Prove it wrong.
If MEAN_ME's 45°/238° were the true 1972 geometry, the photos would show Earth noticeably lower and azimuth-
The photos do show that. You have never shown they don’t.
Getting Grok to do your grandstanding is not going to change the fact that you are wrong. What’s really funny is that he’s effectively admitting that our figures are correct -
As for the true 1972 geometry, here’s a nice few bits from the pre-
By changing the projection to ‘Lunar Globe’, it’s possible to set your location to a specific spot and rotate around it. You also have the option of entering a start date, and displaying the Earth. Here I’ve set the start date to coincide with Apollo 17, and I’m rotating around a point in the Taurus-
They’re screenshots from my phone -
As for the text of the comment, the ICRF error occurs because the batch code you posted is wrong. You can’t choose IAU_MOON as a reference system, which is what your code had it as, because it’s a reference frame -
The steps you define can’t be done, because half of them don’t exist. The results you get are wrong and highly suspect -
Pre-
They even include a map of the sub-
All of the pre-
The reason stray’s figures don’t match is because he is doing it wrong.
